Bighorn - 120 volt hook up

WBG

WBGavin
When I try to plug in my BH3570RS at home (120 volts) to charge the batteries etc., my home GFI trips the instant I plug into the RV. I have used three different "Source" outlets, but they all trip when connected to the RV. The run from my home power outlet to the RV is 150 ft. I have verified that this run is not causing the "fault" by connecting it to a different load.
Could the voltage drop over 150 ft. cause the GFI trip? If not, what other factors could be causing the problem?

Hope you can help.

WBG
 

danemayer

Well-known member
Re: ATF: Bighorn - 120 volt hook up

Hi WBG,

Voltage drops over long runs and a voltage drop causes the load to pull more amps. So it's a possibility that's the problem. I think the lighter the cord, the greater the voltage drop.

If your batteries need a charge, the power converter might be pulling 12 amps. A little voltage drop might be enough to cause a problem.

Another thought: Is the other load you tried using a grounded plug? If there's a problem with your adapters or extension cords, I'm wondering if the ground fault circuit might trip with a grounded load (RV) vs an ungrounded load.
 

JohnDar

Prolifically Gabby Member
Re: ATF: Bighorn - 120 volt hook up

The length of the cord and wire size are a factor. You might need a heavier gage cord to overcome the voltage drop.
 

wdk450

Well-known member
Re: ATF: Bighorn - 120 volt hook up

I ran into a GFI trip problem at a small RV park in the Seattle area that only had a 120 volt GFI space availible to me when I was there. I troubleshot the source of the GFI trip by turning all branch breakers off, connecting to the GFI power source, and turning the branch breakers on one-by-one until the GFI tripped. Then I knew the GFI trip cause circuit. For me it was simply too much steam moisture in the microwave.
 

Hoosier Wolverine

Active Member
Re: ATF: Bighorn - 120 volt hook up

When this happened to me it turned out to be the electric water heater inadvertently left on when we left the campground.
 

SeattleLion

Well-known member
Re: ATF: Bighorn - 120 volt hook up

Hi WBG,

Voltage drops over long runs and a voltage drop causes the load to pull more amps. So it's a possibility that's the problem. I think the lighter the cord, the greater the voltage drop.

If your batteries need a charge, the power converter might be pulling 12 amps. A little voltage drop might be enough to cause a problem.

Another thought: Is the other load you tried using a grounded plug? If there's a problem with your adapters or extension cords, I'm wondering if the ground fault circuit might trip with a grounded load (RV) vs an ungrounded load.

Dan,
Do you have any idea why this happens? Of course, at home we don't put GFI's on all circuits. Is there something we can do to bypass this?
 

danemayer

Well-known member
Re: ATF: Bighorn - 120 volt hook up

Dan,
Do you have any idea why this happens? Of course, at home we don't put GFI's on all circuits. Is there something we can do to bypass this?

Bob, let me preface this by saying that I'm not an electrician. I have had some limited training with 110V and 220V systems, but that was a long time ago and by no stretch of the imagination did it make me an expert on electrical issues.

In general the GFI circuit will trip if you pull more amps than the circuit breaker allows, or when there's a mismatch in current flow out the hot wire relative to what's coming back on the neutral wire. A mismatch indicates that some of the current is flowing to ground somewhere. The GFI breaker detects this and trips to prevent injury.

Next time in a hardware store, take a look at the extension cords. You'll be hard put to find one longer than 50'. Most are 25' or less. The longer cords are typically using heavier wire - 12 gauge vs 14 gauge. The thicker wire minimizes the voltage drop. If the extension cords being used are 14 gauge, which is quite common, there could be a drop of perhaps 15 volts - about 13%.

Defects in extension cords show up in various ways. One serious problem is when you have a bad connection on the ground pin. If there's some current leakage on an appliance, and my understanding is that often there's slight leakage even on appliances that are working properly, the lack of a good ground circuit causes the leaking current to try to find another path to ground. If you ever feel a tingle or light shock when touching the RV, you've become the ground path and that can be VERY dangerous.

Anyway, if the GFI detects a difference between outgoing and incoming electrical flow, perhaps due to a problem with cords or adapters, it will trip. When checking with an alternate load, if the adapters are bypassed, as they might be, the problem might not show up. If the problem is a marginal connection, I'd guess a low amperage test load might not show the problem.

Hope this helps.
 

SeattleLion

Well-known member
Re: ATF: Bighorn - 120 volt hook up

Bob, let me preface this by saying that I'm not an electrician. I have had some limited training with 110V and 220V systems, but that was a long time ago and by no stretch of the imagination did it make me an expert on electrical issues.

In general the GFI circuit will trip if you pull more amps than the circuit breaker allows, or when there's a mismatch in current flow out the hot wire relative to what's coming back on the neutral wire. A mismatch indicates that some of the current is flowing to ground somewhere. The GFI breaker detects this and trips to prevent injury.

Next time in a hardware store, take a look at the extension cords. You'll be hard put to find one longer than 50'. Most are 25' or less. The longer cords are typically using heavier wire - 12 gauge vs 14 gauge. The thicker wire minimizes the voltage drop. If the extension cords being used are 14 gauge, which is quite common, there could be a drop of perhaps 15 volts - about 13%.

Defects in extension cords show up in various ways. One serious problem is when you have a bad connection on the ground pin. If there's some current leakage on an appliance, and my understanding is that often there's slight leakage even on appliances that are working properly, the lack of a good ground circuit causes the leaking current to try to find another path to ground. If you ever feel a tingle or light shock when touching the RV, you've become the ground path and that can be VERY dangerous.

Anyway, if the GFI detects a difference between outgoing and incoming electrical flow, perhaps due to a problem with cords or adapters, it will trip. When checking with an alternate load, if the adapters are bypassed, as they might be, the problem might not show up. If the problem is a marginal connection, I'd guess a low amperage test load might not show the problem.

Hope this helps.

Great info, Dan. Cheap extension cords are the devil here. I use a #10 100ft cord to my coach. (I did electrical work years ago). Ground faults in our trailers could also be caused by the fact that we don't have a real earth ground in our electrical system. We depend on grounding from our power source through any cords we have to use. I suspect this can cause some issues in a long cord. I have considered driving a ground stake at the point where my extension cord joins the trailer power cord. That might help smooth things out.

Of course when you are traveling or full timing, that isn't an option.
 

WBG

WBGavin
Re: ATF: Bighorn - 120 volt hook up

Hi WBG,

Voltage drops over long runs and a voltage drop causes the load to pull more amps. So it's a possibility that's the problem. I think the lighter the cord, the greater the voltage drop.

If your batteries need a charge, the power converter might be pulling 12 amps. A little voltage drop might be enough to cause a problem.

Another thought: Is the other load you tried using a grounded plug? If there's a problem with your adapters or extension cords, I'm wondering if the ground fault circuit might trip with a grounded load (RV) vs an ungrounded load.


Thanks so much for your input. The load I applied to the end of he extension cord did have a ground contact (three prong plug). Also, the extension cord is 14 gauge. I think my next step is to try a 12 gauge cord and see if that makes a difference. I have read online that this is not an uncommon problem and generally resolves to be a open ground in the rig or a bad GFI in he rig. One fact that I did not include is that the fault occurs when the battery disconnect switch is in the OFF position and when it is in the ON position. So if it is "RIG" problem, it must be between the 50 amp connector cord and the battery disconnect switch. At east that what I a thinking at the moment. Any an all other ideas are greatly welcome. We a planning to leave on a 6 week trip soon, and want to have this resolved before we leave.
 

danemayer

Well-known member
Re: ATF: Bighorn - 120 volt hook up

One fact that I did not include is that the fault occurs when the battery disconnect switch is in the OFF position and when it is in the ON position. So if it is "RIG" problem, it must be between the 50 amp connector cord and the battery disconnect switch.

I assume there's a missing "not" as in there's a problem when the battery disconnect is ON and the problem goes away when OFF.

When the battery disconnect is ON, the power converter will be connected to the battery and will be drawing current to charge the battery. That would argue that it's a low voltage/over current scenario related to the length/gauge of extension cord.

As someone else mentioned, you can run this down by turning all of the 110V circuit breakers OFF. Plug into the extension cord. Then starting with the main 50 amp breakers turn them on one a time. When the GFI in the house trips, you'll know which circuit in the RV is causing it to trip.
 

WBG

WBGavin
Re: ATF: Bighorn - 120 volt hook up

I assume there's a missing "not" as in there's a problem when the battery disconnect is ON and the problem goes away when OFF.

When the battery disconnect is ON, the power converter will be connected to the battery and will be drawing current to charge the battery. That would argue that it's a low voltage/over current scenario related to the length/gauge of extension cord.

As someone else mentioned, you can run this down by turning all of the 110V circuit breakers OFF. Plug into the extension cord. Then starting with the main 50 amp breakers turn them on one a time. When the GFI in the house trips, you'll know which circuit in the RV is causing it to trip.

You, and others have given me some great suggestions. I am quite sure I have the problem regardless of the battery disconnect switch position, but I will try/test again, tomorrow. The other great idea is to turn of all the circuit breakers ad then turn them back on one at time. The kids will be here tomorrow so that will be a great time to give this a try.

Thanks to everyone for all their truly great suggestions, I really appreciate it!
 

Gaffer

Well-known member
Re: ATF: Bighorn - 120 volt hook up

A GFCI receptacle will not trip due to voltage drop. It will trip when there is a difference between the current going out on the black (hot) conductor and the current returning on the white (neutral) conductor. The difference if more than a few milliamps, will trip the device. Get a multimeter and check the cord for resistance (ohms) between the three conductors with all extension cords and adapters in place. Your reading should show open (infinite).
 

WBG

WBGavin
Re: ATF: Bighorn - 120 volt hook up

A GFCI receptacle will not trip due to voltage drop. It will trip when there is a difference between the current going out on the black (hot) conductor and the current returning on the white (neutral) conductor. The difference if more than a few milliamps, will trip the device. Get a multimeter and check the cord for resistance (ohms) between the three conductors with all extension cords and adapters in place. Your reading should show open (infinite).

Hi & Thanks

I have a multimeter and will test the cords tomorrow. Good too know that the problem is not due to voltage drop. (I still think the problem is with the rig, but will determine that tomorrow.)

WBG
 

priorguy

Well-known member
Re: ATF: Bighorn - 120 volt hook up

Is there any way you can eliminate the extension cord and plug directly into an outlet?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

swburbguy

Active Member
Re: ATF: Bighorn - 120 volt hook up

I"M a retired electrician. I've seen cord with cuts in outer insulation cause gfi's to trip. I've only been camping for 2yrs and I've seen many campers using too small a cord. People using 16/3 cords for everything. I think they go for cost instead of buying the right one. 16/3 is only rated for 8 amps, 14/3 15 amps, 12/3 20 amps and any longer distances your going to have a voltage drop.
 

WBG

WBGavin
Re: ATF: Bighorn - 120 volt hook up

Hi & Thanks

I have a multimeter and will test the cords tomorrow. Good too know that the problem is not due to voltage drop. (I still think the problem is with the rig, but will determine that tomorrow.)

WBG

I will try to update my research on all your suggestions.

First, I tested both cords with the multimeter and they did not show any voltage "leak" between the black and the white wires or between the black and the ground wire.

Second, the GFI trips both when the battery disconnect switch is in he "DISCONNECT" position and when t is in the "ON" position.

Third, the GRI does not trip when I attach one of my more power hungry, (with three prong plug) power tools to the end of the extension cord, and operate the device.

Fourth, I tried turning off all the circuit breakers, including the two 50 amp breakers, and the GFI still tripped when attached. I also tried turning the two 50 amp circuit breakers ON, with all others OFF and got the same result. For both of these of these trials the battery disconnect switch was in the ON position.

I am taking it to my favorite repair facility tomorrow. The problem must be between the 50 amp connector cord and the battery disconnect switch.

Stay tuned!! :)

WBG
 

cookie

Administrator
Staff member
Re: ATF: Bighorn - 120 volt hook up

Have you tested the reducer plug or dog bone that you are using to go from the extension cord to the 50 amp plug?

Peace
Dave
 

SeattleLion

Well-known member
Re: ATF: Bighorn - 120 volt hook up

I have a gfci on my home circuit to the trailer. No problem. May be a wiring fault in your coach.
 

Gaffer

Well-known member
Re: ATF: Bighorn - 120 volt hook up

Use your multimeter to do the same check at the power inlet on your trailer (or at the end of your 50 amp cord if it I attached to a cord reel) after disconnecting all four conductors at the panel. If it ohms out ok then reconnect the conductors one at a time starting with the ground. Check ohms at the inlet between all conductors each time you reconnect a conductor at the panel. All circuit breakers should be off from the get go. The battery disconnect position has nothing to do with your problem. This is a lot of work so I would likely first replace the GFCI receptacle. It is possible that it is tripping at less than the designed leakage. When tested it should hold at 3 milliamps leakage to ground. It may or may not trip at 5 milliamps and it must trip at 7 milliamps. It is far more common for it to fail the test by not tripping at 7 than by tripping at 3. I have done this test hundreds of times. If this GFCI receptacle is outdoors, be sure to get one with the WP (weather proof) logo on it.
.
 

WBG

WBGavin
Re: ATF: Bighorn - 120 volt hook up

Use your multimeter to do the same check at the power inlet on your trailer (or at the end of your 50 amp cord if it I attached to a cord reel) after disconnecting all four conductors at the panel. If it ohms out ok then reconnect the conductors one at a time starting with the ground. Check ohms at the inlet between all conductors each time you reconnect a conductor at the panel. All circuit breakers should be off from the get go. The battery disconnect position has nothing to do with your problem. This is a lot of work so I would likely first replace the GFCI receptacle. It is possible that it is tripping at less than the designed leakage. When tested it should hold at 3 milliamps leakage to ground. It may or may not trip at 5 milliamps and it must trip at 7 milliamps. It is far more common for it to fail the test by not tripping at 7 than by tripping at 3. I have done this test hundreds of times. If this GFCI receptacle is outdoors, be sure to get one with the WP (weather proof) logo on it.
.

Thank so much PJ.

I took it to my favorite repair shop today. Hope to have a definitive answer soon.

Will keep everyone posted.

Also in response another post, I am not able to get my rig any closer than 100 feet from an electrical outlet.

WBG
 
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