DEF Information

[Doublegranch]

DEF for diesel engines:
Thought I would share some information on DEF as this will be my first experience with it when my new 2016 Ram arrives.
In asking questions on how it works etc the service Mgr and owner of the dealer stated that DEF has a shelf life and must be kept cool....not cold just cool under 86*.
That information was also printed on the Mopar DEF bottle I reviewed.
For HOC members living or traveling in warmer climates, you do not want to keep extra bottles of DEF in the back of your truck exposed to the warm sun or heat for long periods of time.
Heat will cause the DEF to become ineffective and spoil within 30 days. As a test they conducted, they poured a little DEF on the back concrete drive, out of the sun, and it turned to white powder. This will mess up your DEF injector. Should this happen, the cleaning method is to use straight water in your DEF Tank and it will clean the DEF System.
Also noted was the recent visit by the Ram Factory Rep who stated if you run out of DEF you may put water into the DEF Tank to get you to your next DEF supply. You are not to run straight water for long periods of time as it will corrode your system. But in an emergency and short periods, water will get you to your next stop.
I also told them about the posting of I think was a Ford owner puting DEF in the Diesel fuel tank and costing him like $7,000. If this happens on the new Ram's it is only a $700 expense. They drain the tank, change out the water separator filter and you are back on the road. DEF will crystallize the water separator filter like a rock in the new Ram and while DEF will not get into the engine it will shut you down.
Finally I was told unless I am on a long trip do not keep my DEF tank full...Keep it around 1/2 full as when you replenish DEF with new, it will also keep the old DEF active and not spoil. It can heat up and spoil just sitting inside the tank if in the truck over a 30 day period at above 86*. Just thought I would pass this along...I am sure there will be lots of posts and other opinions. Just understand these are not my words, they came from the Dealer and Ram Factory Rep.

 

[guyc66]

$700 to drain the fuel tank and change a filter? Sounds like a really good deal for the service department's profit margin. I think I would do it myself and put the $600 savings in my beer fund!

 

[FLOYD PHILBROOK]

The DEF in my truck has been in the tank since last Oct. I have had no trouble with the DEF with temp 112 plus here in Vegas.Floyd

 

[danemayer]

Also noted was the recent visit by the Ram Factory Rep who stated if you run out of DEF you may put water into the DEF Tank to get you to your next DEF supply. You are not to run straight water for long periods of time as it will corrode your system. But in an emergency and short periods, water will get you to your next stop.

Garry,

The DEF system has a quality sensor and I'm sure it will throw an error code if you use water. At that point you'll need to be close to home because the system limits how far you can drive in a degraded condition before putting you into limp mode.

 

[MTPockets]

There's really no need to carry extra DEF, as you will get a 500 mile warning. DEF is available at lots of places. As far as the blacktop test, the DEF tank is enclosed so I doubt it would evaporate like on a flat surface. No need to over analyze. I fill mine when I get the 500 mile warning and then forget it until next time.

 

[GOTTOYS]

I wonder what the factory Engineers would say about what the factory rep told you. I bet you would hear a couple different stories....Don

 

[Doublegranch]

$700 to drain the fuel tank and change a filter? Sounds like a really good deal for the service department's profit margin. I think I would do it myself and put the $600 savings in my beer fund!

[ I agree with you but just wanted to give a comparison from what someone posted recently about it cost him $7000 while on the road when he put DEF in the fuel tank and drove off..]

- - - Updated - - -

Garry,

The DEF system has a quality sensor and I'm sure it will throw an error code if you use water. At that point you'll need to be close to home because the system limits how far you can drive in a degraded condition before putting you into limp mode.

[Dan, that is interesting, wonder if the Rep was meaning to put in water before you actually run out, say when the warning comes on, then add the water enough to get you to the next stop for DEF. I am new to all this DEF so I have no idea. But I was happy to learn that it no longer requires the regen process as the DEF takes that away from burning all that extra fuel.]

 

[scottyb]

The $7000 deal is due to DEF getting past the filters and into the injectors and injector lines. Not sure how that plays out differently with Rams, but I wouldn't want to give it a try. Unfortunately I know more than one case of this happening here in town, let alone here on the forum.

 

[Doublegranch]

The $7000 deal is due to DEF getting past the filters and into the injectors and injector lines. Not sure how that plays out differently with Rams, but I wouldn't want to give it a try. Unfortunately I know more than one case of this happening here in town, let alone here on the forum.

[The dealer had two cases of it, both at $700. The Ram set up supposedly no DEF can get past the water separator filter. The filter is designed to crystallize as I am told and nothing can get past it. Hence it's a simple tank drain and add a new filter. Not looking at trying this out for myself!]

 

[buddyboy]

Here's a link that answered our questions. http://www.discoverdef.com/

 

[danemayer]

[Dan, that is interesting, wonder if the Rep was meaning to put in water before you actually run out, say when the warning comes on, then add the water enough to get you to the next stop for DEF.]

When you get a low DEF warning you should have plenty of time to get more. The RAM has a gauge so you know where you stand - although on our 2014 RAM, it's non-linear, so the 2nd half goes down really quickly. When towing, if you get to 1/2 full, start looking for DEF before you get a warning.

If you add water after getting the low DEF warning, you'll trigger a DEF Quality error condition that persists after adding more DEF because the remaining water will dilute the new DEF that is added. So you could have a tank full of DEF and water, and the error condition will put you into limp mode after some number of miles.

I would never add water to the DEF tank. I think on GM and RAM you may have to remove the reductant tank to drain the system. Ford's probably the same.

 

[dlw930]

My 2011 Silverado doesn't have a DEF gauge but it does give a "Low DEF" warning with an estimate of the miles remaining, usually about 250 miles. I'm not sure how the mileage is calculated, but it can be very inaccurate. Case in point: We left on a trip and before I'd gone 10 miles the DEF warning message came on and indicated we had approximately 250 miles remaining on the DEF. Before we were halfway to Waco (35 miles) the display indicated I had less than 100 miles remaining and by the time I pulled into the Waco Love's truck stop, it said I only had 30 miles left. I don't trust the sensor so I always carry an extra jug of DEF when towing any distance.


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[bobca1]

I am sure others have posted this kind of info in other threads, but if you are wondering where to get DEF any auto parts store and most gas stations that sell diesel have the 2.5 gal jug for about $15. Walmart (full store not the neighborhood ones) has it for $8 for a jug. When I am traveling best place to fill up is the truck stops they have it for about $3 per gal on the pumps. For convenience one time I bought a couple jugs on Amazon (via Amazon prime) when they were $15 but when I recently checked were up to $30/jug.
Tank on 2015 RAM holds 5 gal. Goes pretty fast when towing I average about 1 DEF fill up for 4 Diesel fill ups. When driving around town empty it pretty much lasts forever.

 

[jmgratz]

I am one of the stupid ones who put DEF in the fuel tank and drove off. Yes the repair was over $7000 as the def gets into the fuel system causing the entire fuel system to have to be replaced. You are lucky if this doesn't happen to the Dodge or Chevy but try it to see if that really works (tongue in cheek). If the DEF circulates in the fuel system then there must really be a super duper filter to keep it from damaging the fuel system. Maybe some of the Dodge mechanics will speak to this.

 

[IronJ]

No sir...you put def in that dodge and drive it, it's not gonna be a simple fix...

One of our clients did JUST THAT... (2013 dodge)..it was his first tine to full def..used a station with pump but put it in wrong tank
..

Drove about 1 mile and truck started running funny and it hit him what he did. .

The "fix" was about 18k best I recall...his insurance covered it....tank,pump,injectors, rails it needed it all...

My brother in laws employee put unleaded in his chevy diesel...insurance covered it...then dropped him...

I've personally know 2 ford owners who have done it. ..ANY water in these temperamental fuel systems basically ruins them...



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[jassson007]

But I was happy to learn that it no longer requires the regen process as the DEF takes that away from burning all that extra fuel.]

Gary not sure about Dodge or GM but my 2014 F350 uses DEF and still does an exhaust regen. It also kills any kind of decent fuel mileage as well.


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[danemayer]

Garry,

You might find one of these caps helpful. It's one more thing to 1) keep you from putting the DEF nozzle into the fuel opening and 2) will keep DEF out of the fuel if there's a spill.

 

[Doublegranch]

Andy:

The new 2016 does not complete a regen. The DEF has it's own injector that sprays DEF into the DPF, so only DEF Fluid is used not diesel fuel. The older Ram's fuel injectors shot diesel on a down stroke into the exhaust creating the heat to burn off the exhaust particles, not the new one, according to my Dealer. If that is the case it has no effect on MPG. Also the new Ram has the new water Separator Filter that will not allow the DEF get past it, so it will not enter the diesel engine as the previous model Ram. Again, I am getting this from the dealer who has serviced all my trucks and will do so on my new one. Also the 2015 Ram's have the same water separator filter as well.

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Garry,

You might find one of these caps helpful. It's one more thing to 1) keep you from putting the DEF nozzle into the fuel opening and 2) will keep DEF out of the fuel if there's a spill.

[Dan, since the truck doesn't have a fuel cap will this slip over the push down plunger? So you would remove it each time prior to fueling...Great idea and I will pick one up. I would assume it will work on the 2016 model, it says up to 2015}

 

[IronJ]

This is all new to me?..how can water and urea clean a dpf??. As I understood dodge WANTED to eliminate emissions from the engine thus reducing after treatments. ...the dpf was still going to be cleaned by a "rich running condition"?....the reality was dodge was adopting more of what ford had already done (super high pressure multi injections, variable vane turbo ...the ngk maufactured dpf filter would still need fuel and heat to regen?...

Can anyone point me to dodge information to the contrary?..I would def like to read up if these things are tru!!

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[Doublegranch]

Ironj:

Not sure completely how it works either, but part of what I thought I understood was the Def is sprayed into the hot exhaust, goes through the Cat and the fluid is atomized attaching itself to the exhaust particles then hits the DPF and passed on to the nox filter, muffler and tail pipe. Not sure how the DPF is cleaned by this method, but I do understand the previous method and how it worked. Guess I will find out next week when I pick up the new Ram. Right now I may be a little gullible as I have no clue about DEF other than what I was told.