Lippert springs strike again
- Thread starter RubiconAg
- Start date
caissiel
Senior Member
On my trailer the shocks were at an angle of 32 Deg from the horizontal.
I found that the design was for 45 deg, and with the springs under the axle would have matched the shock mount installation. But with the spring on top of the axle the shock angle ends up to be only 32 Deg.
I made a top mount adapter and installed the shocks at an angle of 55 deg and it improved the stability of the unit when parked as much as improved the ride.
The axle installation informations suggest that the ideal angle should be around 60 deg from the horizontal. This makes the Lippert installation on the over the axle system to be 1/2 as efficient as the norm.
In Addition I measured the plate bend angle and it is bend for the 60 Deg application, so there is no way that the 32 Deg assembly can survive with the shock at 28 Deg difference with the plate. So the studs will bend with any shocks or without over stressing the springs.
I found that the design was for 45 deg, and with the springs under the axle would have matched the shock mount installation. But with the spring on top of the axle the shock angle ends up to be only 32 Deg.
I made a top mount adapter and installed the shocks at an angle of 55 deg and it improved the stability of the unit when parked as much as improved the ride.
The axle installation informations suggest that the ideal angle should be around 60 deg from the horizontal. This makes the Lippert installation on the over the axle system to be 1/2 as efficient as the norm.
In Addition I measured the plate bend angle and it is bend for the 60 Deg application, so there is no way that the 32 Deg assembly can survive with the shock at 28 Deg difference with the plate. So the studs will bend with any shocks or without over stressing the springs.
I too have fell prey to the Lippert Springs!. On my way last Thursday for some boon dock camping when 5 miles before my destination I saw smoke billowing out of my passenger rear axle on the camper. I immediately pullover thinking I had a flat but the wheel had bottom out inside the wheel well and caused the tire to lockup. Fortunately the tire was new and did not blow out. After inspection, the leaf spring had broken in two along the center pin and came off. I called Heartland and spoke with David who did a great job of helping me, and in time, located all the parts I needed in a nearby city. After 5 hours of being stranded I replaced all of the parts and enjoyed my weekend. Came home and unloaded the camper and noticed it leaning towards the passenger side which had the new leaf spring. I crawled under it again and saw the new spring not only flat but almost concave the opposite direction along with the other three being flat. Today I went to my local trailer store and was talking to the parts manager and told him everyting that happened. I purchased 4 new 2,950 lb. leaf springs with all the hardware to replace the existing springs. I then did a little calculations and came up with the following:
Dry Weight of camper 10,950
GVWR of camper 14,400
Pin Weight 2,690
Subtracting the pin weight from the dry weight of the camper equates to 8,260 and divide that by 4 (4 leaf springs) eqautes to 2,065 lbs per leaf spring. Using the same math for the GVWR equates to 2,928 lbs. per leaf spring. Since the one I replaced come in two versions a 1,750 four bar and a heavier duty 2,400 four bar, how could the factory leaf springs even come close to matching the GVWR of the trailer? The 2,950 I purchased is a 5 bar and they offered them in a 3,300 and 3,500 six bar. I chose the 2,950 because it matched the 6,000 lb axles I have and I did not want the trailer to ride too rough and tear apart everything inside due to the rough ride. Does anyone see anything wrong with my math other than the pin weight stays the same in both formulas?
Dry Weight of camper 10,950
GVWR of camper 14,400
Pin Weight 2,690
Subtracting the pin weight from the dry weight of the camper equates to 8,260 and divide that by 4 (4 leaf springs) eqautes to 2,065 lbs per leaf spring. Using the same math for the GVWR equates to 2,928 lbs. per leaf spring. Since the one I replaced come in two versions a 1,750 four bar and a heavier duty 2,400 four bar, how could the factory leaf springs even come close to matching the GVWR of the trailer? The 2,950 I purchased is a 5 bar and they offered them in a 3,300 and 3,500 six bar. I chose the 2,950 because it matched the 6,000 lb axles I have and I did not want the trailer to ride too rough and tear apart everything inside due to the rough ride. Does anyone see anything wrong with my math other than the pin weight stays the same in both formulas?
Bob&Patty
Founders of SoCal Chapter
IMHO, I would have gone with the 3300# springs. Last year when I had a spring problem, Lippert replaced my springs with 7K springs. I have 6K axles. Trailer rides fine and has not shook anything off yet. It does set about 1" higher now but seems more stable on the turns(not as much lean). With the 2950# springs and somewhere close +/- to 11K on the axles fully loaded...you are just breaking even....no margine for error. 4X3K=12K. BTW, have you ever weighed your trailer on a CAT scale? You might be surprised....don't count on the Factory weight tables. My 2 cts
Thanks for the input, I think I will take them back and get the 3300 lbs. springs. The 2950's only allow for a little margin or error or reserve and it should not ride that much stiffer. I have not weighed my rig but should probably get around to doing that, it is a great idea. Thanks for your help.
Bob&Patty
Founders of SoCal Chapter
ALRIGHTY THEN.........while your at it, why not install wet bolts. Nows the time to do it. BTW, DO NOT JACK UP THE COACH BY THE AXLES....NEVER ...EVER....or the axle gods will put a curse on you. Bad voodoo....your hair will grow in backwards...things will fall off in the street.....off you that is..
That is too funny! I installed them yesterday after work and it really was not that hard with the right tools. I invested in a 10 ton bottle jack that worked flawless, I jacked up the frame right behind the wheels and then used a 2 ton floor jack to lower and raise the axles. I lubricated the bolts with anti-sieze lubricant. I can say now I can stick my hand in between the fender well and the tire. I took pictures of the before and after and will post it later tonight. I will also post on the test drive this weekend.
Bob&Patty
Founders of SoCal Chapter
Well OK...I guess. Sorry...I dont follow your reasoning. I don't grease the threads, I grease the bushings to stop the friction. Friction creates heat...excessive heat ruins thing's. The nylon bushing that Lippert shackles have do not last very long when run dry. Just my reasoning....was an auto tech for 47 years. But sometimes I learn something new.
Sure makes sense to lube the bushings. You should go with wet bolts when you change them out next time. If you get 10K miles out of the bushings without wet bolts you are doing good. The wet bolts are really important in the hangers as when the holes wear out then you have to weld on new hangers.
Grease is supposed to help keep the bushing from seizing and rotating your shackle bolt. Thereby avoiding premature wear on the bolts, shackles, and spring eyes. On the hanger side, same idea. It sure seems to help make them last longer. We have gone to slipper springs on all the heavier trailers years ago due to the short life of the shackles going over ranch roads.
I apologize for not getting back to all on this sooner but we are now getting around to addressing this issue. After going around several times with everyone at Lippert, they flat out denied my claim that the spring failure was their fault. So I will state my case and let you make your own conclusions.
Our trailer is a 2008 BC with 6000# axles underneath it. With a full load, water and all, our trailer scales out at 12,300# unhitched, landing gear and axles on the scale. The tongue weight is 3040# leaving the axles with 9260#. This is welllllllllll below the rated 12000# axle load and far below the 14500# GVWR. Now for the juicy part, the springs under the large living/dinning slide are completely flat almost de-arched and definitely warped like crazy, as noted in my previous pictures in this thread. Now, the non-slide/passenger side of the trailer springs still have good arch to them. Lippert made the claim that I caused my springs to flatten out thus causing terrible tire wear by overloading the trailer. My question to Lippert Inc. was "how could I have possibly overloaded and de-arched two springs on one side of the trailer and not the other?" Lippert used this excuse along with the "your out of our warranty period" to weasel their way out of covering any expense. Lippert went so far as to offer for me to purchase new springs through them only and pay to have my old ones shipped back to them. They would "test" the old/flattend springs on their equipment and should they, "Lippert", find through their own testing that the springs are faulty, they would then reimburse me for the cost of the springs only.....WHAT A JOKE! When I offered to send the springs to a third party to have them tested they said the only test they would stand behind was their own. "Fox in the hen house......"
<O
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All of this was discovered by taking the trailer to Kro-Built down in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com//heartlandowners.org/ /><st1:City alt=</st1:City>Reno, <st1:State w:st="on">NV </st1:State></ST1to diagnose the tire wear. They stated at the time that the springs were definitely not rated to handle such a load and they would not have put anything less than 6-pack leafs underneath. The quote that I received from them for new springs, shocks, mounts and recommended new axles was ~$1600. They said the same about the shocks as well; the angle that they are mounted at is completely worthless. I know from my off-road racing days that at ~30* off 90* shocks start losing a substantial amount of effectiveness and by ~50* they are almost worthless. Somone on here mentioned theirs are mounted at 58* off 90*......
<O
Today I picked up 4 Emco 3300lb, 6-pack springs, new "U" bolts, all "wet" mounting bolts and complete bearing kits from a reputable trailer company; I will be doing the work myself. I unfortunately am not yet replacing the axles but will do so in the near future. I am out the time and money for parts, not to mention, 4 tires and lost traveling.<O</O
<O</O
On a side note, I talked to someone at Heartland Service and they alluded to the fact that Heartland could potentially be shopping around to find another supplier for frame/suspension products. I sure hope this is truth as it would be sad to see a great manufacturer be brought down to the levels of such a poor supplier.<O</O
Our trailer is a 2008 BC with 6000# axles underneath it. With a full load, water and all, our trailer scales out at 12,300# unhitched, landing gear and axles on the scale. The tongue weight is 3040# leaving the axles with 9260#. This is welllllllllll below the rated 12000# axle load and far below the 14500# GVWR. Now for the juicy part, the springs under the large living/dinning slide are completely flat almost de-arched and definitely warped like crazy, as noted in my previous pictures in this thread. Now, the non-slide/passenger side of the trailer springs still have good arch to them. Lippert made the claim that I caused my springs to flatten out thus causing terrible tire wear by overloading the trailer. My question to Lippert Inc. was "how could I have possibly overloaded and de-arched two springs on one side of the trailer and not the other?" Lippert used this excuse along with the "your out of our warranty period" to weasel their way out of covering any expense. Lippert went so far as to offer for me to purchase new springs through them only and pay to have my old ones shipped back to them. They would "test" the old/flattend springs on their equipment and should they, "Lippert", find through their own testing that the springs are faulty, they would then reimburse me for the cost of the springs only.....WHAT A JOKE! When I offered to send the springs to a third party to have them tested they said the only test they would stand behind was their own. "Fox in the hen house......"
<O
</OAll of this was discovered by taking the trailer to Kro-Built down in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com//heartlandowners.org/ /><st1:City alt=</st1:City>Reno, <st1:State w:st="on">NV </st1:State></ST1
to diagnose the tire wear. They stated at the time that the springs were definitely not rated to handle such a load and they would not have put anything less than 6-pack leafs underneath. The quote that I received from them for new springs, shocks, mounts and recommended new axles was ~$1600. They said the same about the shocks as well; the angle that they are mounted at is completely worthless. I know from my off-road racing days that at ~30* off 90* shocks start losing a substantial amount of effectiveness and by ~50* they are almost worthless. Somone on here mentioned theirs are mounted at 58* off 90*......<O
Today I picked up 4 Emco 3300lb, 6-pack springs, new "U" bolts, all "wet" mounting bolts and complete bearing kits from a reputable trailer company; I will be doing the work myself. I unfortunately am not yet replacing the axles but will do so in the near future. I am out the time and money for parts, not to mention, 4 tires and lost traveling.<O
</O<O
</OOn a side note, I talked to someone at Heartland Service and they alluded to the fact that Heartland could potentially be shopping around to find another supplier for frame/suspension products. I sure hope this is truth as it would be sad to see a great manufacturer be brought down to the levels of such a poor supplier.<O
</OI went through the samething with those jokers at lippert, the repair shop sent the old springs back but those fools can't find them LOL. I have given up on trying to get lippert to stand behind their crappy products, I will fix my springs my self and under no circumstances will I ever own another rv with a lippert frame under it NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
done-it-again
Member
I apologize for not getting back to all on this sooner but we are now getting around to addressing this issue. After going around several times with everyone at Lippert, they flat out denied my claim that the spring failure was their fault. So I will state my case and let you make your own conclusions.
Our trailer is a 2008 BC with 6000# axles underneath it. With a full load, water and all, our trailer scales out at 12,300# unhitched, landing gear and axles on the scale. The tongue weight is 3040# leaving the axles with 9260#. This is welllllllllll below the rated 12000# axle load and far below the 14500# GVWR. Now for the juicy part, the springs under the large living/dinning slide are completely flat almost de-arched and definitely warped like crazy, as noted in my previous pictures in this thread. Now, the non-slide/passenger side of the trailer springs still have good arch to them. Lippert made the claim that I caused my springs to flatten out thus causing terrible tire wear by overloading the trailer. My question to Lippert Inc. was "how could I have possibly overloaded and de-arched two springs on one side of the trailer and not the other?" Lippert used this excuse along with the "your out of our warranty period" to weasel their way out of covering any expense. Lippert went so far as to offer for me to purchase new springs through them only and pay to have my old ones shipped back to them. They would "test" the old/flattend springs on their equipment and should they, "Lippert", find through their own testing that the springs are faulty, they would then reimburse me for the cost of the springs only.....WHAT A JOKE! When I offered to send the springs to a third party to have them tested they said the only test they would stand behind was their own. "Fox in the hen house......"
<O
All of this was discovered by taking the trailer to Kro-Built down in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com//heartlandowners.org/ /><st1:City alt=</st1:City>Reno, <st1:State w:st="on">NV </st1:State></ST1
<O
Today I picked up 4 Emco 3300lb, 6-pack springs, new "U" bolts, all "wet" mounting bolts and complete bearing kits from a reputable trailer company; I will be doing the work myself. I unfortunately am not yet replacing the axles but will do so in the near future. I am out the time and money for parts, not to mention, 4 tires and lost traveling.<O
<O
On a side note, I talked to someone at Heartland Service and they alluded to the fact that Heartland could potentially be shopping around to find another supplier for frame/suspension products. I sure hope this is truth as it would be sad to see a great manufacturer be brought down to the levels of such a poor supplier.<O
I just bought 2 new springs from Lippert for my Cylcone and when they came in, they were Emco springs.
