Levelup Voltage Issues

[Roadpossum]

2016 Bighorn 3270RS

I keep getting a Low Battery message on my Lippert Levelup display. I am also having intermittent shutdowns during operation of the levelers. I have four L16 AGM batteries and my solar display, as well as my inverter display both show a 13.4VDC battery voltage, while the Levelup display shows 12.1VDC. I'm assuming I have a loose connection somewhere or a bad breaker that is causing the voltage drop. Is there a wiring diagram available that will tell me what breaker is used for what circuit? Thanks for any input or suggestions... Curt

 

[Oregon_Camper]

I replaced mine with an 80amp breaker, but you can still see in my diagram where the original breaker is. (I've circled it in blue for you)

 

[danemayer]

You have a row of 12V DC mini-circuit breakers near the batteries. They're typically covered by red rubber boots. Two of the breakers have thick wires attached: one goes to the Power Converter and Fuse Box in the coach, the other to the hydraulic pump.

Use a voltmeter to take voltage readings on both sides of those breakers. But put the black meter lead on a good frame ground - not the battery negative. You should be getting the same 13.4 or so. If you do, try again using the battery negative terminal as ground. If voltage drops, you have a problem with the grounding.

If you don't have 13.4V at the breakers, trace the wires back to the batteries looking for a bad connection.

If the voltage drops on one side of the mini-circuit breaker, you may have a problem with grounding of the hydraulics pump or at the Power Converter.

I'm attaching a block diagram that's probably representative of what you have along with a picture of the buss bar and breakers, with boots removed. Yours may be arranged a little differently. Look for the thick wires.

 

[Roadpossum]

Thanks...!!! Was the 80 amp breaker installed to eliminate this problem? I'm assuming you had to go with a heavier wire gauge to use that heavy of a breaker, or was amperage is the original breaker 80A as well? Curt

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks Dan - The troubleshooting info and attachments are great...!!!

Curt

 

[Roadpossum]

We just returned from a trip through the Southwest and I just put the rig back into off-site storage. With our current weather, it might be a couple of weeks before I will get a chance to look at it.

In looking at the wiring diagrams, it looks like the same heavy wire is used for the hydraulics for both the levelers and the slides. While there is no voltage display for the slides, I haven't experienced any issues with their operation. I'm wondering if the problem may be is the control wiring/voltage going to the Levelup control panel itself. Do you know if it runs off off the same high amp circuit? I assume it must be a low amp circuit that controls a series of load relays for the leveling jacks? Thanks, Curt

 

[danemayer]

We just returned from a trip through the Southwest and I just put the rig back into off-site storage. With our current weather, it might be a couple of weeks before I will get a chance to look at it.

In looking at the wiring diagrams, it looks like the same heavy wire is used for the hydraulics for both the levelers and the slides. While there is no voltage display for the slides, I haven't experienced any issues with their operation. I'm wondering if the problem may be is the control wiring/voltage going to the Levelup control panel itself. Do you know if it runs off off the same high amp circuit? I assume it must be a low amp circuit that controls a series of load relays for the leveling jacks? Thanks, Curt

You may have one problem, or perhaps two problems. The low voltage readout is very unlikely to be a breaker problem. However, stallout of the levelup may be either from low voltage, or from a breaker problem, or some combination.

You can read about the start/stop issue in some detail in our Hydraulic Slide Starts and Stops user guide.

The power source for the levelup control panel is a little difficult to pin down. I've attached a generic Lippert diagram, but it doesn't really clearly show which line's voltage the control panel is displaying.

 

[avvidclif]

Most likely the voltage sensing circuit is not in the control panel but in the main unit. Try reseating the connectors to the main unit.

 

[Roadpossum]

You may have one problem, or perhaps two problems. The low voltage readout is very unlikely to be a breaker problem. However, stallout of the levelup may be either from low voltage, or from a breaker problem, or some combination.

You can read about the start/stop issue in some detail in our Hydraulic Slide Starts and Stops user guide.

The power source for the levelup control panel is a little difficult to pin down. I've attached a generic Lippert diagram, but it doesn't really clearly show which line's voltage the control panel is displaying.

My Levelup problems doesn't seem to be a 'stallout' or start/stop problem as much as it seems to be in the controller itself. I get the 'Low Voltage' display, then while it's in the middle of leveling or retracting, the screen goes completely blank like I hit the On/Off switch on the controller. I then have to turn it back on manually with the switch and restart whatever function I was in the middle of. Sometimes I need to do this two or three times before the jacks have fully landed or retracted. It acts like the control panel microprocessor is getting low voltage and just shutting down. If it was the high amp breaker I would think the slides would be having the same problem. I've looked at Lippert's generic diagram, but it doesn't really show me where the controller gets it's power in my rig. I'm guessing I might just have to start pulling fuses in the 12V panel inside the kitchen cabinet to see where Heartland sourced the control circuit and then start looking for loose connections from there. Thanks for all of the input - this forum is an amazing source of knowledge and help. Curt

 

[danemayer]

My Levelup problems doesn't seem to be a 'stallout' or start/stop problem as much as it seems to be in the controller itself. I get the 'Low Voltage' display, then while it's in the middle of leveling or retracting, the screen goes completely blank like I hit the On/Off switch on the controller. I then have to turn it back on manually with the switch and restart whatever function I was in the middle of. Sometimes I need to do this two or three times before the jacks have fully landed or retracted. It acts like the control panel microprocessor is getting low voltage and just shutting down. If it was the high amp breaker I would think the slides would be having the same problem. I've looked at Lippert's generic diagram, but it doesn't really show me where the controller gets it's power in my rig. I'm guessing I might just have to start pulling fuses in the 12V panel inside the kitchen cabinet to see where Heartland sourced the control circuit and then start looking for loose connections from there. Thanks for all of the input - this forum is an amazing source of knowledge and help. Curt

The power probably doesn't come from the fuse box. It's more likely coming through one of the mini circuit breakers, or perhaps a standalone fuse in the front compartment.

But I'm pretty sure the "screen goes completely blank" is a low voltage problem. It's probably not just on the control panel. You're losing power somewhere. And after you get it straightened out, you may find that you'll have to replace the 50 amp breaker to the hydraulics because it's probably been affected by the low voltage condition.

 

[carl.swoyer]

2016 Bighorn 3270RS

I keep getting a Low Battery message on my Lippert Levelup display. I am also having intermittent shutdowns during operation of the levelers. I have four L16 AGM batteries and my solar display, as well as my inverter display both show a 13.4VDC battery voltage, while the Levelup display shows 12.1VDC. I'm assuming I have a loose connection somewhere or a bad breaker that is causing the voltage drop. Is there a wiring diagram available that will tell me what breaker is used for what circuit? Thanks for any input or suggestions... Curt

I had a problem with the fifty amp auto reset breaker constantly resetting. I changed it and no problems since.
However on my Magnum Inverter remote display I'm seeing 50/55 amps while running the slide out and excess of 65/68 amps while the slides are being retracted.
I'm wondering if my trombetta solenoid is defective.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[carl.swoyer]

I had a problem with the fifty amp auto reset breaker constantly resetting. I changed it and no problems since.
However on my Magnum Inverter remote display I'm seeing 50/55 amps while running the slide out and excess of 65/68 amps while the slides are being retracted.
I'm wondering if my trombetta solenoid is defective.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

I spoke with trombetta, the mfg of the trombetta solenoid used in our level up and hydraulic slides.
They stated that the start-up amps could be in excess of 75 amps. We have a 50 amp auto reset breaker.
I then spoke with Lippert technical support. Although they could not comment on the heartland configuration of our hydraulics I was able to get the following.
When Lippert sells there hydraulics as an aftermarket install they supply everything to include the correct size wire to support an 80 amp auto reset breaker. ??? We have a fifty ??.
My Magnum Inverter remote control shows 55/57 amps going out.
When retracting 66/67 amps continuous (50amp factory ).
Lippert stated that the retact function will always be more amps as there's a restrictor in the hydraulic to prevent the hydraulic fluid from returning to the Reservoir while the hydraulics are deployed.
Mine is a 2012 Landmark and just now having "issues"
Any thoughts other than carrying extra breakers.

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[TedS]

carl.swoyer, remove the 50 amp breaker and install an 80 amp breaker and not worry about interrupted power again under normal operating conditions.

 

[carl.swoyer]

carl.swoyer, remove the 50 amp breaker and install an 80 amp breaker and not worry about interrupted power again under normal operating conditions.

I was considering going that route. But.... My rig has 10 gauge wire. An 80 amp auto reset breaker will require 6 gauge wires from the trombetta solenoid to the hydraulic pump then from there to the battery.
According to heartland the Newer rigs now have the 80 / 6 ga. Configuration.
Just got off the phone with Heartland Tech Service.
So I'm thinking....I'll be carrying extra breakers. Unless I find a great deal on 6 gague wire.


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[danemayer]

I spoke with trombetta, the mfg of the trombetta solenoid used in our level up and hydraulic slides.
They stated that the start-up amps could be in excess of 75 amps. We have a 50 amp auto reset breaker.
I then spoke with Lippert technical support. Although they could not comment on the heartland configuration of our hydraulics I was able to get the following.
When Lippert sells there hydraulics as an aftermarket install they supply everything to include the correct size wire to support an 80 amp auto reset breaker. ??? We have a fifty ??.
My Magnum Inverter remote control shows 55/57 amps going out.
When retracting 66/67 amps continuous (50amp factory ).
Lippert stated that the retact function will always be more amps as there's a restrictor in the hydraulic to prevent the hydraulic fluid from returning to the Reservoir while the hydraulics are deployed.
Mine is a 2012 Landmark and just now having "issues"
Any thoughts other than carrying extra breakers.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Judging by the thin wires, I doubt the solenoids draw very much power. The pump draws the power.

The breakers don't trip instantly when the rated current is exceeded, so pulling 67 amps for a few seconds may not trip a 50 amp breaker. The evidence of that would be all the times it worked correctly since 2012.

But if the battery charge ever gets low, the current draw goes up. If it's cold, the current draw goes up. If the connections are dirty, loose or corroded, the current draw goes up. If you hold the button for a few seconds after the jacks or slides reach end of travel, the pump motor lugs and the current draw goes way up. All of these things can cause the breaker to trip. And after it trips a few times, it seems like it never operates like new.

You can move to a larger breaker, but consider that the wires are probably not rated for the larger breaker. So to whatever degree you were overheating the 50 amp breaker, by upgrading the breaker, if you don't also upgrade the wires, you'll be overheating the wires. Maybe it matters, maybe it doesn't. You get to decide.

Hydraulic Slide Out Starts and Stops User Guide is in this folder.

 

[TedS]

The low voltage high amperage scenario does not apply to dc motors. Low voltage pushes less current through a dc motor which is more of a resistive load device than an ac motor. The breaker still has to be able to carry the dc motor locked(stalled) amp draw.

 

[carl.swoyer]

Judging by the thin wires, I doubt the solenoids draw very much power. The pump draws the power.

The breakers don't trip instantly when the rated current is exceeded, so pulling 67 amps for a few seconds may not trip a 50 amp breaker. The evidence of that would be all the times it worked correctly since 2012.

But if the battery charge ever gets low, the current draw goes up. If it's cold, the current draw goes up. If the connections are dirty, loose or corroded, the current draw goes up. If you hold the button for a few seconds after the jacks or slides reach end of travel, the pump motor lugs and the current draw goes way up. All of these things can cause the breaker to trip. And after it trips a few times, it seems like it never operates like new.

You can move to a larger breaker, but consider that the wires are probably not rated for the larger breaker. So to whatever degree you were overheating the 50 amp breaker, by upgrading the breaker, if you don't also upgrade the wires, you'll be overheating the wires. Maybe it matters, maybe it doesn't. You get to decide.

Hydraulic Slide Out Starts and Stops User Guide is in this folder.

I agree no complaint here. Simply observation and talked to Gary at heartland he stated that all the newer rigs are built with the 6 gague wire and the 80 amp auto reset breaker. Apparently heartland has recognize the design flaw and has corrected it.
Me I'm carrying extra breakers.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[danemayer]

The low voltage high amperage scenario does not apply to dc motors. Low voltage pushes less current through a dc motor which is more of a resistive load device than an ac motor. The breaker still has to be able to carry the dc motor locked(stalled) amp draw.

Doesn't Ohms law find that Amps = Power (watts) / Voltage expressed in the equation I=P/V?

For example in the case of the hydraulics pump, 50 amps = 600 watts / 12 Volts.
But if voltage drops from 12 to 10 volts, the equation changes to 60 amps = 600 watts / 10 volts. After a short time, the breaker overheats and trips.

If the low voltage high amperage scenario doesn't apply to dc motors, then for amperage to stay at 50 amps while voltage drops to 10 volts, the equation would be 50 amps = 500 watts / 10 volts.

But as voltage continues to drop, 50 amps = 250 watts / 5 volts. Eventually 50 amps = 50 watts / 1 volt.

So if Power (watts) is what's changing, the motor would make an effort at the reduced power level but would as some point not be able to move the slide because it just isn't getting enough power.

But that's clearly not what happens. Instead, the breaker trips, indicating that amperage does increase as voltage drops.

But maybe I'm missing something. If so, I'd like to know.

- - - Updated - - -

I agree no complaint here. Simply observation and talked to Gary at heartland he stated that all the newer rigs are built with the 6 gague wire and the 80 amp auto reset breaker. Apparently heartland has recognize the design flaw and has corrected it.
Me I'm carrying extra breakers.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

The initial driver for the change to 80 amp breakers was to supply sufficient power to the KIB Multi-Plex Control System in Landmark 365. Plant 2 also builds Bighorn and Big Country, so it was a small step to decide to build all three coaches using the 80 amp breaker since the same people build all three products on the same production line.

Heartland management is also hoping for a reduction in service calls because of the change.

But, as far as I know, trailers like Cyclone and Road Warrior have not yet changed to 80 amp. So it might be a stretch to say that Heartland sees the 50 amp breaker as a design flaw.

 

[carl.swoyer]

Doesn't Ohms law find that Amps = Power (watts) / Voltage expressed in the equation I=P/V?

For example in the case of the hydraulics pump, 50 amps = 600 watts / 12 Volts.
But if voltage drops from 12 to 10 volts, the equation changes to 60 amps = 600 watts / 10 volts. After a short time, the breaker overheats and trips.

If the low voltage high amperage scenario doesn't apply to dc motors, then for amperage to stay at 50 amps while voltage drops to 10 volts, the equation would be 50 amps = 500 watts / 10 volts.

But as voltage continues to drop, 50 amps = 250 watts / 5 volts. Eventually 50 amps = 50 watts / 1 volt.

So if Power (watts) is what's changing, the motor would make an effort at the reduced power level but would as some point not be able to move the slide because it just isn't getting enough power.

But that's clearly not what happens. Instead, the breaker trips, indicating that amperage does increase as voltage drops.

But maybe I'm missing something. If so, I'd like to know.

- - - Updated - - -



The initial driver for the change to 80 amp breakers was to supply sufficient power to the KIB Multi-Plex Control System in Landmark 365. Plant 2 also builds Bighorn and Big Country, so it was a small step to decide to build all three coaches using the 80 amp breaker since the same people build all three products on the same production line.

Heartland management is also hoping for a reduction in service calls because of the change.

But, as far as I know, trailers like Cyclone and Road Warrior have not yet changed to 80 amp. So it might be a stretch to say that Heartland sees the 50 amp breaker as a design flaw.

I believe that is why they went to the 80 amp breaker .
This is also the way Lippert sells there hydraulics with the 80 amp breaker and the 6 gauge wires.
For me I'm staying with my current configuration and extra breakers. A side note, I'm running on 4 group 31 AGM deka batteries.. When I noticed that the amps were as I posted I was on shore power and a full charge.
Its great news! Maybe heartland could put a Technical Service Bulletin . These are usually put out by the engineer department.
And the folks that have opted for the 80 amp breaker without updated wires, their are asking for trouble.

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[TedS]

Doesn't Ohms law find that Amps = Power (watts) / Voltage expressed in the equation I=P/V?

For example in the case of the hydraulics pump, 50 amps = 600 watts / 12 Volts.
But if voltage drops from 12 to 10 volts, the equation changes to 60 amps = 600 watts / 10 volts. After a short time, the breaker overheats and trips.

If the low voltage high amperage scenario doesn't apply to dc motors, then for amperage to stay at 50 amps while voltage drops to 10 volts, the equation would be 50 amps = 500 watts / 10 volts.

But as voltage continues to drop, 50 amps = 250 watts / 5 volts. Eventually 50 amps = 50 watts / 1 volt.

So if Power (watts) is what's changing, the motor would make an effort at the reduced power level but would as some point not be able to move the slide because it just isn't getting enough power.

But that's clearly not what happens. Instead, the breaker trips, indicating that amperage does increase as voltage drops.

But maybe I'm missing something. If so, I'd like to know.

- - - Updated - - -



The initial driver for the change to 80 amp breakers was to supply sufficient power to the KIB Multi-Plex Control System in Landmark 365. Plant 2 also builds Bighorn and Big Country, so it was a small step to decide to build all three coaches using the 80 amp breaker since the same people build all three products on the same production line.

Heartland management is also hoping for a reduction in service calls because of the change.

But, as far as I know, trailers like Cyclone and Road Warrior have not yet changed to 80 amp. So it might be a stretch to say that Heartland sees the 50 amp breaker as a design flaw.

Ohm's law relates v=i*r and it does apply. As the hydraulic load increases, the dc motor speed decreases reducing back emf, allowing more current to flow at 12vdc, increasing torque to try to bring the motor back up to speed. But if applied voltage drops, speed drops reducing back emf, allowing maybe more current if the reduced voltage can push it. Otherwise, the reduced voltage and lower available power will result in loss of hydraulic power output. Max current would be the reduced voltage divided by the motors resistance. That current may still be up around 50 to 60 amps at 10 volts. The 1hp motor at 12 volts draws 60+ amps.

 

[carl.swoyer]

Judging by the thin wires, I doubt the solenoids draw very much power. The pump draws the power.

The breakers don't trip instantly when the rated current is exceeded, so pulling 67 amps for a few seconds may not trip a 50 amp breaker. The evidence of that would be all the times it worked correctly since 2012.

But if the battery charge ever gets low, the current draw goes up. If it's cold, the current draw goes up. If the connections are dirty, loose or corroded, the current draw goes up. If you hold the button for a few seconds after the jacks or slides reach end of travel, the pump motor lugs and the current draw goes way up. All of these things can cause the breaker to trip. And after it trips a few times, it seems like it never operates like new.

You can move to a larger breaker, but consider that the wires are probably not rated for the larger breaker. So to whatever degree you were overheating the 50 amp breaker, by upgrading the breaker, if you don't also upgrade the wires, you'll be overheating the wires. Maybe it matters, maybe it doesn't. You get to decide.

Hydraulic Slide Out Starts and Stops User Guide is in this folder.

Dane what thin wires are you talking about. My 2012 was wired with 10 ga. And a 50 amp breaker. Yes it is six years old I'm not complaining just stating that this is a good news senario . Until I decide to update my wire and breaker its good, with a few extra breakers.

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