RV Hot-Skin electrical shocks

jmsokol

Active Member
And there are two rallies coming up in Maryland.

When, where, and who? Any contacts?

One day after having everything set up for camp, I managed to bump into the dog pen and the trailer (awning I think) at the same time. What a surprise I was getting zapped! No wonder the dogs did so well at this campground. :rolleyes:

Interestingly, there have been some big studies in the midwest (Indiana and Illinois, I think) demonstrating how small shocks in cattle feeders and milking machines affect cow's milk production. This leakage voltage seems to be related to multiple ground and 3-phase distribution issues at farms. As you can imagine, cows stand on the wet concrete or ground all the time, so hooking up a machine to their tender areas with even a few volts of "hot-udder" AC will cause a lot of stress. And stress reduces milk production. I'm sure that even small AC voltages of even a few volts via an RV touching the dog cage will cause the animals to stress as well. And a stressed animal isn't going to do their best, either in competition or the milking parlor.

More on this later, but I've also been studying electrical shock issues in pets.

Mike Sokol
mike@noshockzone.org
 

jmsokol

Active Member
And there are two rallies coming up in Maryland.

I found your rally event page and compared it to my own travel schedule. It might be possible for me to present a NoShockZone seminar in Berlin, MD on Saturday Sept 10th. Who's in charge of this rally, and would they welcome a seminar of this type? Also, I see this is at Castaways Resort, so they must have a community room of some sort, correct? http://www.castawaysrvoc.com/

Can anyone give me the lay of the land?

Mike Sokol
mike@noshockzone.org
[h=2][/h]
 

jmgratz

Original Owners Club Member
Thank you for your bio. Very interesting. I find it is always helpful to know ones background when it comes to their expertise. Sounds to me like you have it. You info seems right on too. Hopefully I can catch one of your seminars one day.
 

jimtoo

Moderator
Thank you for your bio. Very interesting. I find it is always helpful to know ones background when it comes to their expertise. Sounds to me like you have it. You info seems right on too. Hopefully I can catch one of your seminars one day.

I agree with you completely Jim.

Jim M
 

jmsokol

Active Member
I agree with you completely Jim.

Jim M

Jim(s)

I appreciate your confidence in me. I strive for 100% accuracy in my technical statements and always get peer reviews of anything I write about. Note that I said "strive" as it's possible for anyone to make a mistake. If anyone ever finds anything incorrect in one of my postings, either in my math or logic, please ask for me to review my statements, and I'll set up a bench experiment then get the results peer reviewed by one of my many engineering buddies such as Gary Bunzer (AKA The RV Doctor). I'll then let you know what I found out, warts and all. I have thousands of magazine articles in print, and wince at every mistake I find when rereading them, no matter how small.


Also, does anyone on this forum have a direct connection to the Heartland RV factory? I want to speak to them about presenting some NoShockZone seminars at Heartland dealerships around the country, especially while I'm in California this September.

Mike Sokol
mike@noshockzone.org
 

TedS

Well-known member
Mike, I have a question regarding the open ground condition. Do you also have to have a circuit leak, or resistive connection, or short-to-ground to have the hot-skin condition and not just an open ground? If true, you would have two problems to solve. The open ground and the circuit leak.
 

SouthernNights

Past South Carolina Chapter Leader
Jim(s)

I appreciate your confidence in me. I strive for 100% accuracy in my technical statements and always get peer reviews of anything I write about. Note that I said "strive" as it's possible for anyone to make a mistake. If anyone ever finds anything incorrect in one of my postings, either in my math or logic, please ask for me to review my statements, and I'll set up a bench experiment then get the results peer reviewed by one of my many engineering buddies such as Gary Bunzer (AKA The RV Doctor). I'll then let you know what I found out, warts and all. I have thousands of magazine articles in print, and wince at every mistake I find when rereading them, no matter how small.


Also, does anyone on this forum have a direct connection to the Heartland RV factory? I want to speak to them about presenting some NoShockZone seminars at Heartland dealerships around the country, especially while I'm in California this September.

Mike Sokol
mike@noshockzone.org

That would be Jim Beletti. He works for HL. His title is Director of Owner Interests and you can PM him here-//heartlandowners.org/member.php/2-jbeletti
 

jmsokol

Active Member
Mike, I have a question regarding the open ground condition. Do you also have to have a circuit leak, or resistive connection, or short-to-ground to have the hot-skin condition and not just an open ground? If true, you would have two problems to solve. The open ground and the circuit leak.

That's exactly right, you need two conditions to create a hot-skin condition.

The first condition would be an "open ground". That open safety ground can be inside the campsite pedestal itself from a loose connection on the back of the outlet, or a broken ground connection between the pedestal and the campground power service entrance, of it could be within your own extension cord due to a broken off ground pin or broken wire, or possibly even inside your RV itself within the power panel where the shore plug ground connection is supposed to bond to the chassis of your vehicle. But an open ground by itself won't cause a hot-skin condition; it just makes for the possibility of a hot-skin. You need a voltage source to then create a hot-skin.

This second required condition occurs when something inside your RV provides a conductive path from the "hot wire" to the vehicle chassis. The classic example would be someone driving a screw into the wall which then goes through an electric wire, producing a complete "short" to chassis ground capable of pushing 20 amps or more current. Now in that circumstance, your RV safety ground connection is supposed to shunt that current back to the service panel's Neutral to Ground bond connection, thus tripping your 20 amp circuit breaker. But if you don't have a nice solid electrical path back to the campground's service panel, then your RV chassis will happily go right up to 120 volts hot-skin potential above the earth.

The other common situation is when an appliance such as a microwave, refrigerator, or even a computer in your RV develops a leakage current inside its own power supply from the hot wire to the appliance chassis. Now since the appliance typically has its own ground pin on the power plug, this leakage voltage (typically 60 to 90 volts and maybe 10 to 50 mA current capability) will back-feed into your RV's internal grounding system. Again, if your RV has a perfect safety ground back to the main panel, this 60 to 90 volts of hot-skin potential will never occur since it's being drained to earth back at the campground's N-G bonding point. Note that this ground-fault current never really goes through the earth beneath your feet; it loops through the artificial ground plane created within the entrance service panel by the Ground Bus, Neutral Bus, and Ground Rod. That's why leveling jacks down on the dirt will do nothing to protect you from an open ground induced hot-skin condition. The dirt is a pretty poor "ground" and only remotely connected to the service panel's ground connection via the ground rod many hundreds of feet away. But the dirt beneath your feet certainly has enough conductivity to pass sufficient current (10 mA) through your heart if you touch a hot-skin electrified metal stairs or a doorknob while standing on the wet grass or dirt.

The real kicker is what I call a reflected hot-skin condition, where a campground has lost the safety ground connection from a loop of daisy-chained campsites back to its service panel entrance. In that case, you can have a single RV with a hot-to-chassis short create a hot-ground pin on multiple pedestal receptacles. And note that turning off your own campsite pedestal or RV circuit breaker panel will do nothing to stop this reflected hot-ground condition from creating a hot-skin condition on your own RV. Even installed surge and voltage protectors will NOT disconnect your RV ground from the hot-ground voltage in the pedestal. That's why I still think it's the best policy for everyone to do a voltage check on any campsite power pedestal BEFORE plugging in, and use a non-contact AC voltage tester such as a Fluke VoltAlert to confirm your RV skin is safe. And if you EVER feel the slightest shock or tingle from your RV, disconnect from shore power by pulling the plug immediately and call for a certified electrician. If they don't understand what you're talking about at the campground or say that it's OK to get shocked, break camp and get out of there. Also, call your RV service club and campground franchise to report the campsite number along with the pedestal power condition and lack of repair by the campground. I would also demand my money back from the campground since paying for a campsite with a dangerous power pedestal is silly. Don't leave a dangerous power pedestal available for the next camper to find and possibly be electrocuted.

This is such an important subject that I'm going to write it up as a full article with diagrams next week and publish it on RVtravel.com and NoShockZone.org. So if this sounds confusing right now, I'll try to clarify it in the full article.

In the meantime, never accept feeling a shock or tingle from your RV. It's a warning sign that the next touch could severely shock or kill you or a loved one.

Let's stay safe out there....

Mike Sokol
mike@noshockzone.org
 

TedS

Well-known member
Mike, thanks for the answer. So in addition to fixing the ground break we should also fix the circuit leak, the appliance short, that may be hiding if you have a good ground connection. With a good ground connection, the GFCI should then kick open or the circuit breaker should kick open.
 

jmsokol

Active Member
Mike, thanks for the answer. So in addition to fixing the ground break we should also fix the circuit leak, the appliance short, that may be hiding if you have a good ground connection. With a good ground connection, the GFCI should then kick open or the circuit breaker should kick open.

Exactly right....

I think that's why hot-skin conditions seem to come and go randomly. A solid ground connection can hide the fact that you have a hot-to-ground current leakage in an RV appliance. And while your RV's own GFCI breakers should trip with 6 mA of leakage, remember that the 30 and 50 amp outlets on the campsite pedestals DO NOT have their own GFCI breakers. So it's then up to your own RV's GFCI to protect you from shock. Unfortunately, some RV owners remove their GFCI breakers because they randomly trip and shut off the fridge or whatever, when in fact, they're doing their job and shutting off the circuit that's producing the leakage current. Removing a factory GFCI is both illegal and contrary to the National Electrical Code, so if a GFCI is tripping, then something is leaking current somewhere in your RV's electrical system. So finding the electrically leaky appliance is the correct fix.

Of course, this is a separate issue from assuring a solid (low-impedance) ground path from your RV chassis to the campground's ground bonding point. I use a special meter called a GLIT (Ground Loop Impedance Tester) which fires a very short duration 20 amp pulse through the RV chassis down the ground wire and measures how well it sinks the current to the safety ground. This is not a cheap tester, on the order of $300 to $600, and certainly not something an RV owner should have to mess with. However, I feel that every RV repair shop and campground should have one of these ground loop impedance testers and use them to certify every RV in for repair, and to test every campsite receptacle for pedestal ground continuity once a season. The ground continuity test only takes a few seconds to do, so even a large state campground with 500 sites should be able to cover all their pedestals in a day or two. This same tester will also confirm pedestal outlet polarity, and with a proper kludge cable, confirm proper 120/240 volt same-phase issues.

However, these Ground Loop Impedance Tests are not part of the RVIA build standard, and not instituted by any campground association I know of. If you want safer campground pedestals, then it's time for you to speak up to whatever campground associations you belong to, and put them in touch with me. I'm working on a detailed test procedure for RV technicians and campground operators, but need a grassroots effort from owners such as yourselves to make it happen.

Thanks for your interest....

Mike Sokol
mike@noshockzone.org
 

jmsokol

Active Member
Thank's for the PM's asking about hosting NoShockZone seminars at your RV rally or event. I'll do my best to visit as many as I can, but know that we're currently on a nationwide tour teaching audio production seminars. Please see http://howtosound.com/when.htm for my updated road schedule. So while I may not be able to visit your rally this year, if you shoot me dates and cities for your 2012 events, we may be able to tweak my road schedule to match up with your rally schedules.

Secondly, please send links from www.NoShockZone.org and www.youtube.com/HowToSeminars to anyone you know with an RV. We want this electrical safety information to reach as many RV owners as possible. A survey we ran on RVtravel.com last year showed that 21% of RV owners had been shocked by their RVs. That's 1 out of every 5 RVs you see driving down the road or in a campground. That's just out of control, so anything you can do to help educate other RV owners about the importance of RV electrical safety will help. You could save their life, and that's a great thing.

Finally, we're looking for training or public safety grants that would fund these NoShockZone seminar road trips and training videos. I already have many hundreds of hours invested in understanding and writing about RV electrical safety, but no RV manufacturer wants to get involved to support our efforts. We don't feel that you, the RV owner, should have to foot the bill for this training. We think that manufacturers of RV vehicles and equipment should support our public training efforts, along with whatever campground organizations you know of. So if you're connected with an RV manufacturer, campground organization, or state/federal agency that can supply a safety education funding grant, we're willing to ramp up our NoShockZone efforts to hit every state in the country. It's my privilege to develop and teach about RV electrical safety, but I can't do it on my own. Any funding channels or ideas you can provide will be a big help.

Thanks for your support...

Mike Sokol
mike@noshockzone.org
 

Peteandsharon

Well-known member
I had such a situation with an older aluminum skinned travel trailer. When the A/C would leak water down the side of the trailer you could touch the skin around the door and feel a distinct tingle. Like a dummy I passed it off as a fluke. It was only after I started feeling it in the frame of the trailer while working underneath that I started looking at root causes. Turns out, after much digging, that the ground prong of my plug had been fried. I was told that this is fairly common. Apparently, many park boxes have old or "loose" receptacles. Because the plug sits loosely in the receptacle, a good connection does not occur and excess heat is generated. Bottom line is that replacing the plug fixed the problem. The downside is that unless I specifically knew that there was a problem i would never have noticed that the plug was bad. A very subtle blackening around the ground prong was all the evidence there was.

Pete
 

jmsokol

Active Member
Apparently, many park boxes have old or "loose" receptacles. Because the plug sits loosely in the receptacle, a good connection does not occur and excess heat is generated. Bottom line is that replacing the plug fixed the problem. The downside is that unless I specifically knew that there was a problem i would never have noticed that the plug was bad. A very subtle blackening around the ground prong was all the evidence there was.
Pete

I have seen this sort of corrosion/heating/loosening effect over the last 40 years I've been doing serious electrical work. And it's especially troublesome on connections that require spring tension to insure a low-resistance path. Your trailer's shore power connection certainly falls into that category, since any corrosion (oxide/rust) on the plug will cause increased resistance and some heating under load, which then reduces the spring tension on the mating contact, which adds more resistance, which increases the heating effect even more, and so on in a vicious circle .... which at some point will reach an avalanche condition and either catch on fire or open up completely, depending on the load conditions.

I'm going to speak to one of my metallurgist engineering buddies and see if they can recommend a safe contact cleaner anyone could spray on their RV shore power connectors seasonally to remove the oxide buildup. I have my own copper cleaning recipe which is a mixture of concentrated Nitric, Sulfuric, and Hydrofluoric acid and requires it be used under a vapor hood since it will kill you if you breath the fumes, so I'm sure NOBODY wants to use it on their RV plugs. But it was really cool since it would literally blast the oxide off of copper resistor leads in less than a second. Ah, the fun I used to have.

More to study....

Mike Sokol
mike@noshockzone.org
 
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Rodney_M

Member
after all this discussion, i had to run out and pick up one of the ac volt-alerts.. it is going in the truck pocket from now on
 

jmsokol

Active Member
after all this discussion, i had to run out and pick up one of the ac volt-alerts.. it is going in the truck pocket from now on

The only brand/model non-contact AC tester I've personally tried on my bench is the Fluke 1AC-A1-II Volt-Alert AC Non-Contact Voltage Tester which is rated for 90 to 1,000 volts, but which detects large surface hot-skin voltages down to 40 volts AC. I have confirmed its operation via peer review with Fluke's engineering group as well as other electrical engineers I know. You can buy them at http://www.amazon.com/Fluke-1AC-A1-II-Volt-Alert-Non-Contact-Voltage/dp/B000EJ332O You can recognize the standard 90 VAC tester because it has the flat-blade tip that will fit into a standard wall outlet slot.

If you get the low-voltage model (the one with the round tip) rated from 20 to 200 volts, it's too sensitive to use for testing outlet polarity on the campsite pedestal. That's why I use and recommend the standard electrician's 90 to 1,000 volt Fluke VoltAlert (the one with the flat blade).

Other brands may work as well, as long as they have the correct sensitivity (90 Volts on the low side).

I think that taking a VoltAlert around a campground to casually check RVs that you walk by for hot-skin conditions could save some lives. Again, you don't even have to touch the RV itself. If you get within an inch of the trailer hitch it will light up at 40 to 50 volts. And if the RV is fully electrified to 120 volts AC, your VoltAlert will beep at 18 inches away. If you find an RV with a hot-skin, I would immediately contact the RV owner and campsite manager and warn them of the danger. DO NOT touch the body of the RV that's exhibiting a hot-skin with your hand since you could be shocked or electrocuted. If the RV occupants are inside, I would recommend that one of them take a little jump out of the RV without touching the stairs or door frame and the ground at the same time, and immediately shut down the pedestal circuit breakers and disconnect the shore power plug. Contact an RV technician or electrician to determine the source of the hot-skin voltage BEFORE plugging the RV back in and putting the pedestal and RV back in service.

If you have any questions on procedure, please contact me for clarification.

Mike Sokol
mike@noshockzone.org
 

Rodney_M

Member
i wasnt able to find that brand, but found a Gardner Bender. it has the flat blade tip and shows a operating range between 50-600VAC, 50-60Hz; CAT III 600V. hopefully this one will suffice.. if not, i will go online and order one.. We are planning to take the rv out middle of next week, so didnt want to wait for the mail to get one.. with this being rated down to 50VAC but up to 600, do you think it may be too sensitive? it doesnt signify on package low voltage tester.. simply non-contact voltage tester, and it does have the flat tip vs a round..

The only brand/model non-contact AC tester I've personally tried on my bench is the Fluke 1AC-A1-II Volt-Alert AC Non-Contact Voltage Tester which is rated for 90 to 1,000 volts, but which detects large surface hot-skin voltages down to 40 volts AC. I have confirmed its operation via peer review with Fluke's engineering group as well as other electrical engineers I know. You can buy them at http://www.amazon.com/Fluke-1AC-A1-II-Volt-Alert-Non-Contact-Voltage/dp/B000EJ332O You can recognize the standard 90 VAC tester because it has the flat-blade tip that will fit into a standard wall outlet slot.

If you get the low-voltage model (the one with the round tip) rated from 20 to 200 volts, it's too sensitive to use for testing outlet polarity on the campsite pedestal. That's why I use and recommend the standard electrician's 90 to 1,000 volt Fluke VoltAlert (the one with the flat blade).

Other brands may work as well, as long as they have the correct sensitivity (90 Volts on the low side).

I think that taking a VoltAlert around a campground to casually check RVs that you walk by for hot-skin conditions could save some lives. Again, you don't even have to touch the RV itself. If you get within an inch of the trailer hitch it will light up at 40 to 50 volts. And if the RV is fully electrified to 120 volts AC, your VoltAlert will beep at 18 inches away. If you find an RV with a hot-skin, I would immediately contact the RV owner and campsite manager and warn them of the danger. DO NOT touch the body of the RV that's exhibiting a hot-skin with your hand since you could be shocked or electrocuted. If the RV occupants are inside, I would recommend that one of them take a little jump out of the RV without touching the stairs or door frame and the ground at the same time, and immediately shut down the pedestal circuit breakers and disconnect the shore power plug. Contact an RV technician or electrician to determine the source of the hot-skin voltage BEFORE plugging the RV back in and putting the pedestal and RV back in service.

If you have any questions on procedure, please contact me for clarification.

Mike Sokol
mike@noshockzone.org
 

jmsokol

Active Member
i wasnt able to find that brand, but found a Gardner Bender. it has the flat blade tip and shows a operating range between 50-600VAC, 50-60Hz; CAT III 600V. hopefully this one will suffice.. if not, i will go online and order one.. We are planning to take the rv out middle of next week, so didnt want to wait for the mail to get one.. with this being rated down to 50VAC but up to 600, do you think it may be too sensitive? it doesnt signify on package low voltage tester.. simply non-contact voltage tester, and it does have the flat tip vs a round..

I suspect that it will be fine. Here's how to test it in advance. Turn it on and poke the plastic flat blade into a standard 120 volt wall outlet in your house. It should beep on the short (hot) slot, not beep on the tall (neutral) slot, and not beep on the ground (U-shaped hole). If you find that it beeps whenever you get close to the front of the electrical outlet, then it's too sensitive to differentiate polarity on a campsite pedestal, which is my second use for these testers.

It's not that a 50 volt rated tester won't find a hot-skin RV, as it will certainly do that just fine. But you don't want it beeping anytime you get near a pedestal outlet since that won't let you gather any real intel. That's what I found with my 24-volt rated testers and the variable voltage testers set on "low" voltage. They trigger down to 20 volts on an RV hot-skin, which is fine for finding a hot-skin, but which causes them to beep a little too easily for outlet polarity testing.

FYI: I think that Sears stocks the Fluke VoltAlerts for $25 or so.

Please update me with the brand and model # of the tester you bought along with your results of checking it on a home outlet.

Mike Sokol
mike@noshockzone.org
 
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Rodney_M

Member
the brand is Gardner Bender (GB) and the model is a GVD-3504. it is too sensitive for the above test. it starts lighting up if you get anywhere near the receptacle.. I will swing by Sears and see if i can find the Fluke Brand VoltAlert.
 

jmsokol

Active Member
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